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#41
SauronDark

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Lets assume for question sake they do reach that enlightment and have broaden their mind. Do we still able to keep them as pet? Or they are free to live on their own?

Do we retain right of ownership over them or do they have freedom to choose?

I think they might want to leave their own way freedom but with humans, i mean not like human whistled and Dog appeared for your service or.. fun dumbly, so they surely might need our support but in returns, they might do some jobs that we might cant do well enough efficiently, like police and army or any intelligent agency, and earn their honor and respect just like human do, but its sure they shall regret human as owner, but if "family"...

 

I disagree, so by that logic people who didnt have some organs or limbs is not considered human? Some philosophers even said: We think, therefore we are

see I am not talking about "people" (which is a more specifying word to someone or some group) I mention if we remove some organs from entire human, then our entire human species shall be said as different then current human.


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#42
Godfather292

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I think they might want to leave their own way freedom but with humans, i mean not like human whistled and Dog appeared for your service or.. fun dumbly, so they surely might need our support but in returns, they might do some jobs that we might cant do well enough efficiently, like police and army or any intelligent agency, and earn their honor and respect just like human do, but its sure they shall regret human as owner, but if "family"...

 

see I am not talking about "people" (which is a more specifying word to someone or some group) I mention if we remove some organs from entire human, then our entire human species shall be said as different then current human.

 

Lol we now kinda have 2 discussion in same time, but very well XD

 

Yeah, maybe its not that hard to imagine, like having adopted child/family members, but what do you think about their loyalty? By that time, dogs would have lived with humans millions and millions of years, would they still "trained" as dog would now? Would that count as education or forced training/working?

 

I think she mean if only a human brain could be considered human or human must possess some sort of physical bodies: Is living human brain inside full robot still considered human? Or even further, if we can store and copy minds of human into some robot, do that robot become "human"? 


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#43
Bluekronos

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Lets assume for question sake they do reach that enlightment and have broaden their mind. Do we still able to keep them as pet? Or they are free to live on their own?

Do we retain right of ownership over them or do they have freedom to choose?

Depends on what they will do. Rebellion of dogs might force us to give them but it is up to the humans.

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#44
Godfather292

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Depends on what they will do. Rebellion of dogs might force us to give them but it is up to the humans.

 

Well they have lived generations and generation with us all those times (evolution takes lots of time) so isn't the very fabric of their society is closely intricated with us humans? 


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#45
Jeanne_dArc

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I think they might evolve and be close friends to us, and ofc they would have their own rights. You can "own" them in the past (like now) but not when they have evolved that advanced. 

 

Which begs another question: When and how to tell the line? 



#46
Godfather292

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I think the time they start to ask for their right is the moment.

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#47
Godfather292

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Lol I stumbled over this:

 

The UN has many debates on what qualifies as a pet, after finally giving in to that dinosaurs are appropriate for domestic ownership. After much pressure they finally give in under conditions which would likely include:

  • Relatively low intelligence so they can't be self sufficient but must be sentient.
  • They may not work for pay.
  • Cat ears and Tail must appropriately large to prevent confusion.
  • The may not vote or engage in similar activities.
  • Normal pet protection and owner responsibilities apply to them.

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#48
SauronDark

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Yeah, maybe its not that hard to imagine, like having adopted child/family members, but what do you think about their loyalty? By that time, dogs would have lived with humans millions and millions of years, would they still "trained" as dog would now? Would that count as education or forced training/working?

The dog shall be trained same as Human in army and police, ofc some education too. but subjects not like accounting, Programming or graphic designer, cooking, politics, etc, but those subjects that Dogs required to learns, 
 

Is living human brain inside full robot still considered human? Or even further, if we can store and copy minds of human into some robot, do that robot become "human"?

nice topic, I'll think later, but all I can say, if that living brain belongs to a human (whatever if human may be got die by heart attack but brain still alive or clone brain with the same memory of a particular human), then yeah he is human, and the robotic body is prosthetic,

 

lol i am running behind ':)


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#49
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Okay then, suppose we accept those notions, then if we can store human mind into some sort of device that means we can also copy it.

 

If then I copy this 1 human mind into for example 3 device, are they all human? So can we have 2 exact copy of human? Do they retain all rights as human?

 

Even further.... If they then live separately without knowing the others, will they develop their own "mind"? The deeper we think, the consequences would be enormous XD

 

Think about banking in that human name, or other kind of transaction using that identity. 


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#50
Godfather292

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Apparently some philosophers already did think about this... And the answer is quite disturbing... The more you think, the future becoming scarier....

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#51
SauronDark

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Okay then, suppose we accept those notions, then if we can store human mind into some sort of device that means we can also copy it.

 

If then I copy this 1 human mind into for example 3 device, are they all human? So can we have 2 exact copy of human? Do they retain all rights as human?

 

Even further.... If they then live separately without knowing the others, will they develop their own "mind"? The deeper we think, the consequences would be enormous XD

 

Think about banking in that human name, or other kind of transaction using that identity. 

there are two methods of coping:

 

first, copying brain to computer hardware device, that's AI (Artificial Intelligence), these AI are super conscious, think as human do, and memory is actually a copy of human's brain, so this makes AI as that particular human-like, but never to be considered Human.

 

Second, Cloning Brains and Implanting Dumb Robot body on it, the control of the Dumb Robot Body is of course that Clone of the brain, this makes Cyborg-kind, which they shall develop the mind and new memories with the Stronger robot body make them better than humans, but then Still Not considered Human.

 

 

"Time" to ask my question.

Time is a river, flow like a river, slows down when obstacles around and vice versa.

 

Or

 

Time is a God processor, make them slow during heavy processing and vice verse.

 

?


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#52
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How about if we move human mind to "merge" with an AI, is that still considered human? Cyborg? Just AI?

Hive mind is also complicates this, if you think several human mind could be merged.

About your question.... I think its more of the first case, as time did affected by gravity. Time and space is inseparable but gravity affect them.

But until we learn more about blackhole, we cant be sure 100%

Things that happen beyond the event horizon is still a mystery. It could bring light to the parallel universe or multiverse if you will. Also some speculate it could work as a "warp" point across the fabric of timespace, think like using a needle and string to stich one part of fabric to the other part of the same fabric.

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#53
Slateyo

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?


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#54
Godfather292

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What do you confused about?

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#55
SauronDark

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How about if we move human mind to "merge" with an AI, is that still considered human? Cyborg? Just AI?

Hive mind is also complicates this, if you think several human mind could be merged.

About your question.... I think its more of the first case, as time did affected by gravity. Time and space is inseparable but gravity affect them.

But until we learn more about blackhole, we cant be sure 100%

Things that happen beyond the event horizon is still a mystery. It could bring light to the parallel universe or multiverse if you will. Also some speculate it could work as a "warp" point across the fabric of timespace, think like using a needle and string to stich one part of fabric to the other part of the same fabric.

cyborg
 
hive mine (central Ai) just need one brain, but here two types of hive mind too, first, Active central hive mind monitoring and controlling every individual worker that is connected to it at once in real time + some more things like technology controls and other political, it is sure this AI need a Spacial brain and worker dont need brain as they are in controled centraly, now second, if in case of passive hive mind, central AI just do some commanding and monitor just rondom one individual at a time to watch about work is done (not controlling any one) and all worker mind connected to each other so they coordinate their jobs, now its possible central Ai to use human brain.

 

no, time doesn't affect by gravity, in fact, neither affected by any forces, because when time stops, all force becomes zero, that means everything becomes not moving, electromagnetic spectrum stops that mean everything from radio waves to visible light to gamma radiations stops and becomes dark all the sudden, at atomic level, all positive and negative charge and other physical atomic properties stop reacting this makes atom doesn't exist anymore this makes all physical objects not exist such as animals, trees, earth, sun, blackhole, etc, and all the diamentions too stop existing and make nothingness, its just like you playing minecraft all the sudden minecraft stop responding, then you find out that actually, operating system stops responding, then backout (means intel/Amd Processor dead/stop), imagin God is just playing this simulation real world... game. on his computer, and some hardware failure/ power down / his mom arrive and say "enough that game >:[ " *Unplug power cord* 

 

but if you are god and still can see thing and move during stoped time, you end up watching like this.

 

iR1Sp.png

 

basically, all physics works based on time, and time is not time, it's more likely FPS (my theory)


Edited by SauronDark, 16 April 2018 - 06:38 AM.

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#56
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Well I know about time dilation and gravity have some role on it.

 

See here: https://en.wikipedia...l_time_dilation

 

I always think if God is an Omni-God (omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence), God must be present on a higher dimensional plane than us, for example 4D. By existing on a higher plane, God then can work outside time, time is just another separate dimension. 

 

2D beings will see 3D being to be able to be seen but sometime unseen (by getting out of the X-Y plane), same thing will happen to us in 3D world seeing 4D world to be able to be moving in time, to past, future, or present.  


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#57
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And thats is another interesting topic I think. Suppose this scenario: human lived millions and millions of years, sufficient enough until another sentient being come into existence. Suppose this newly evolving creature is a dog. What happen to the dogs we keep as pet? Is it ethical to make sentient beings pet?

 

TL;DR version if a dog evolve until it becomes sentient being, can we still keep them as pet?

 

Domesticated dogs won't evolve, since evolution depends on natural selection, which, in turn, depends on environmental pressures applied to a species. For this same reason, we, as humans, will probably not ever evolve into a different species, since, with modern technology, we find our own ways of circumventing any environmental pressures that may guide natural selection.

 

Since we keep our pets sheltered from the elements, take them to a vet if they're sick, and keep them safe from any potential natural predators, there are no environmental pressures for natural selection to act on.

 

Only wild breeds of dog, like hyenas and wolves can evolve far enough for speciation to occur, and in this case it's like asking "Is it wrong to keep a monkey as a pet?". In other words, the evolved species of "dog" will only become a distant relative of domestic dogs as we see them today, in the same way as humans and other great apes are distantly related to monkeys.

 

PS: Dogs are already sentient beings. They can see, hear, think (albeit mostly basic thoughts), feel emotions, feel pain etc., and they are self aware. Sentience, in layman's terms, means that something can have subjective perceptual experiences. So, in other words, if it has a brain, it's sentient.


Edited by C4t4ly5t, 15 May 2018 - 11:02 AM.

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#58
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Well I know about time dilation and gravity have some role on it.

 

See here: https://en.wikipedia...l_time_dilation

 

I always think if God is an Omni-God (omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence), God must be present on a higher dimensional plane than us, for example 4D. By existing on a higher plane, God then can work outside time, time is just another separate dimension. 

 

2D beings will see 3D being to be able to be seen but sometime unseen (by getting out of the X-Y plane), same thing will happen to us in 3D world seeing 4D world to be able to be moving in time, to past, future, or present.  

 

Interesting speculation, but, until the existence of this 4th dimension is proven, or, at very least, suggested by some evidence, it remains baseless speculation. We have no reason to even believe that 2 dimensional beings exist, let alone 4 dimensional beings. Occam's Razor applies here.

 

PS: Omnipotence and Omniscience, by definition, are mutually exclusive.


Edited by C4t4ly5t, 15 May 2018 - 10:51 AM.

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#59
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Domesticated dogs won't evolve, since evolution depends on natural selection, which, in turn, depends on environmental pressures applied to a species. For this same reason, we, as humans, will probably not ever evolve into a different species, since, with modern technology, we find our own ways of circumventing any environmental pressures that may guide natural selection.

Since we keep our pets sheltered from the elements, take them to a vet if they're sick, and keep them safe from any potential natural predators, there are no environmental pressures for natural selection to act on.

Only wild breeds of dog, like hyenas and wolves can evolve far enough for speciation to occur, and in this case it's like asking "Is it wrong to keep a monkey as a pet?". In other words, the evolved species of "dog" will only become a distant relative of domestic dogs as we see them today, in the same way as humans and other great apes are distantly related to monkeys.

PS: Dogs are already sentient beings. They can see, hear, think (albeit mostly basic thoughts), feel emotions, feel pain etc., and they are self aware. Sentience, in layman's terms, means that something can have subjective perceptual experiences. So, in other words, if it has a brain, it's sentient.

Ah my bad, I may used the wrong term, english is not my main language XD what I mean is if we breed them in captivity, but keep stimulating them so they would need to solve problems etc intellectually. Theoretically speaking they would one day develop similarities to us now (ofc at that time human have evolved far more superior). At that point, can we still keep them as pet?

Another interesting topic is can we steer the evolutionary path of some animal/plant? We domisticate them all the time until now, but can we develop it even further?

Edited by Godfather292, 20 May 2018 - 09:41 AM.

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#60
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Ah my bad, I may used the wrong term, english is not my main language XD what I mean is if we breed them in captivity, but keep stimulating them so they would need to solve problems etc intellectually. Theoretically speaking they would one day develop similarities to us now (ofc at that time human have evolved far more superior). At that point, can we still keep them as pet?

Another interesting topic is can we steer the evolutionary path of some animal/plant? We domisticate them all the time until now, but can we develop it even further?

 

We could, theoretically, but the amount of genetic change needed would possibly require millions of generations of dogs. If you take into consideration that a dog is considered mature between 6 and 18 months of age, (for best problem solving, it's best to select a dog that has matured mentally), it's good to breed them once a year.

 

Assuming that, the experiment would still take millions of years. Even in something as rapidly breeding as rabbits (and dogs are already far more intelligent than rabbits, so they have a lot of catching up to do, setting your progress back a million or more generations), the timeframe of the experiment would be unrealistically long.

 

I said that it's theoretically possible because of many breeds of dog, pitbull and fox terrier, just to name two off the top of my head, did not come into being naturally. They were purpose-bred for their specific goals. So they are, in fact, prime examples of artificially guided micro-evolution. Keep that up long enough, and it could eventually end in us creating a brand new species of animal.

 

Keep in mind that artifiicially guiding the intelligence level from that of a dog to something close to as advanced as a human mind would still require millions of generations. Scientists have also artificially guided the evolution of bacteria (one of the fastest reproducing lifeforms known, creating a new generation every 30-60 minutes, far beyond the reproduction rate of any mammal) to form a brand new species of bacteria. So it is possible, but even on that scale of reproduction, impractical.


Edited by C4t4ly5t, 21 May 2018 - 10:37 PM.

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